Abraham Lincoln said, “I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live up to what light I have.” And Viktor Frankl said, “Everything can be taken from a man but the last of the human freedoms: to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances.”
My guest today is Dr. Jordan Peterson. He is a Canadian Professor of Psychology, known for teaching mythology to lawyers, doctors, and business people, and for helping his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia.
His lectures have been viewed by hundreds of millions of people online. Jordan has published over 100 scientific papers that have transformed our modern understanding of personality. His previous book, 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, was a New York Times bestseller and mega-hit around the world. He’s now back with a new book titled Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life.
This interview ended up going an hour longer than we planned — almost two and a half hours in total! The entire conversation with Jordan was too captivating to cut it short.
In part one of this two-part post, we’ll dive into the first half of the episode and learn about Jordan’s marriage of 50 years, and how to start opening yourself up to what you want in life. Jordan also has some surprising things to teach us about marriage, discipline, resentment, and memory.
I’m telling you, this episode is eye-opening, even for those of you who, like me, have already heard him speak or read his books. There’s so much I learned in our conversation that I’ve never heard him say before.
Let’s jump straight in!
Who Is Jordan Peterson?
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, a clinical psychologist, and the author of the multi-million copy bestseller 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, #1 for nonfiction in 2018 in the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, the Netherlands, Brazil, and Norway, and slated for translation into 50 languages.
With his students and colleagues, Dr. Peterson has published more than a hundred scientific papers, advancing the modern understanding of creativity, competence, and personality, while his now-classic book, Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief (released in June 2018 as a new bestselling author-read audiobook) transformed the psychology of religion. He was nominated for five consecutive years as one of Ontario’s Best University Lecturers and is one of only three professors rated as “life-changing” in the U of T’s underground student handbook of course ratings.
Dr. Peterson recently came out with his new book Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life, and I suggest you pick up a copy! This book is full of wisdom on how to bring order to the chaos of our daily lives.
I’ve had the honor of interviewing Dr. Peterson in the past (Episodes #664 and #665), and it was a joy to have him back on the show! Our conversation was so insightful that I had to split it into two parts, so make sure to check back on Wednesday to hear the rest of his wisdom.
Jordan’s Keys to a Successful 50-Year-Long Marriage
It’s easy to romanticize successful long-term relationships. So often, we think successful relationships and marriages are ones in which we’re comfortable all the time, but that’s not true. According to Jordan, successful relationships are all about creating a space where the boundaries are clearly defined, and each partner can trust the other to be completely open about their thoughts, feelings, and experiences.
“[My wife and I] do our best not to lie to each other about anything. We have fights when they’re necessary because we don’t hide things in the fog. If we’re having a dispute, we do our level best to get to the bottom of it, to find out what in the world’s causing it, who needs to change and why, and how, and when, and then how we can progress forward into the future without having that issue doghouse or drag behind us. That means a fair bit of confrontation. Less so over the years as we’ve settled more things [with] everything out in the open.” – Dr. Jordan Peterson
I love his last point: the idea that having everything out in the open is what builds trust. The longer you’re in a relationship and the quicker you settle disputes it would seem, the fewer issues you may have to contend with in the future.
Another reason why Jordan says his marriage continues to be so rewarding and fulfilling even after so many decades together: they keep the romance alive by continuing to date each other, making it a point to schedule as many as three special dates per week. (In his newest book, Jordan includes an entire chapter about romance called ‘Plan and Work Diligently to Maintain the Romance in Your Relationship’.
Jordan also explains that relationships require effort, preparation, and cooperation, and describes what that looks like in his marriage:
“We both want it to work. That’s another thing, we’re committed to it and not interested in finding another relationship. So far we’ve been fortunate in that it’s worked. We have fun together. We love our kids. We’ve had joint projects together, renovating houses, traveling, raising our children, and now our grandchildren. [Out] of all that, the most important thing as far as I’m concerned is not to lie to your partner.” – Dr. Jordan Peterson
What Carl Jung Taught Jordan about Marriage
Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst, spoke about marriage as a ‘vow’, perhaps as a reminder that marriage is a commitment to stay together and support your partner no matter what. That means sticking around even when they’re sick, irritating, or frustrating, or when things from their past—like generational or childhood trauma—cause them to think or behave in ways that might be challenging, or that might affect the dynamic of your relationship.
This is what Jordan says is one of the advantages of marriage: it seems to be easier for us to reveal ourselves completely, wounds and all when we’re with a partner who has made that official, on-paper commitment to stick with us unconditionally. For those of us who have a lot of personal growth ahead of us, being able to be open about our challenges, experiences, and difficult feelings can help a lot with healing past traumas and can make a huge impact on personal growth.
“[To be married] means you’ll have someone there when you’re not well, and so will your partner. You’ll have someone to share all the positive things of life with. Human beings are complicated and have such dark corners and unresolved problems in their life. Sometimes those stem back generations and are twisted and bent in all sorts of ways. It’s very difficult to reveal [yourself] except to someone who can’t run away.” –Dr. Jordan Peterson
Jordan’s Thoughts on Jealousy and Insecurity in Relationships
When we think of jealousy and insecurity in a relationship, the first thing we think of is usually the infamous wandering eye or the idea that your partner might not be as faithful and monogamous as you’re relying on them to be.
But there’s another kind of jealousy we should look out for — one that can sneak up on us. It’s the jealousy you might feel when your partner seems to be finding more success in life than you.
Jordan has something to say about that:
“[Jealousy in this situation] is not helpful. You should be pleased! The optimal situation is to be pleased when your partner is successful. I don’t think the competition between people who are in a monogamous relationship is useful. You’re on the same team.” –Dr. Jordan Peterson
If you’re feeling jealous about your partner’s success, it’s important to ask yourself if you might be comparing your personal life journey to theirs, and struggling with some feelings of insecurity about your worth or skills.
